CAFE

Hey all, I'm one of the many who wasn't happy with the treatment Japan and China got in Divine Wind, but I like how they were handled in Vicky2 and I'm generally optimistic that the ROTW might get a little more love this time around. The devs probably already know what the plan is for this region, but it can't hurt to brainstorm, right? Worst case scenario, these ideas can help get some mods rolling.

For China, I think the substate system was a pretty elegant solution to Vicky 2's China problems, and I think something like the HRE would be a good fit for EUIV. Dividing the country into rough geographic units or historical commanderies, united under an HRE-style Divine Empire, would do a good job of showing the logistical problems that bogged down Chinese expansion as well as the potential for regional revolts and army mutinies that created so many of the empire's problems. A diplomatic unification would require lots of work and only be available to a closed-off, traditionalist state- modernizing would dissolve the empire and set up wars of unification. China should also have access to a relatively small selection of CBs against its neighbors (to model the fact that it would fight punitive wars or intervene to support local allies, but made very few attempts at expansion during this time period). I also think that a modifier increasing war exhaustion would be a good mechanic for limiting China's expansion into the steppe or southeast Asia and helping to produce the aforementioned revolts and mutinies. All these limitations could be shaken off through the process of modernization.

When it comes to Japan, the Minamoto-Fujiwara-Taira-Tachibana divide is painfully ahistorical but for gameplay reasons it might be the best option for much of the game. The Sengoku Jidai is just about impossible to model because the game lacks the geographic detail to show all of the dozens of factions that existed in Japan at the time and had as good a chance at unification as any other. But, at the very least, I think there should be an Imjin War, a Sekigahara campaign (Toyotomi vassals versus Tokugawa vassals), and a revised Shogunate mechanic, with Bakufu, Kampaku and Imperial restoration unification paths, plus decisions regarding overseas trade, Christianity, and social structure. Japan's military modernization should also be fairly easy during the period 1500-1600, seeing as the Japanese army that invaded Korea was organized on essentially the same lines as Europe's more modern armies of the time (mass mobilization of commoners into well-drilled pike and shot divisions, traditional gentry serving as the officer class and cavalry, a focus on defeating the enemy in decisive shock combat). Toyotomi-era Japan supported overseas trade, was receptive to Western science and made an official goal of expansion and conquest, so if it weren't for the social change brought on by the super-conservative Tokugawa Shoguns I think it's entirely plausible that Japan could have "westernized" well before 1700 and participated in the colonization of Indonesia and Indochina. Even for the Tokugawa, I think isolation should be optional, but modernization and expansion should come at the price of frequent, major reactionary revolts

Korea doesn't need quite as much attention as Japan or China, but I do think they should have the easiest time of the three producing a modern navy. They famously, independently invented the world's first armored, cannon-bearing vessels (these were oar-powered and obviously useless for commerce or deep-sea travel, but in coastal waters it gave them a major tactical advantage during the Imjin War). The country was restricted by its Confucian social order and China's overbearing influence, but if the player can manage a major social/religious change I think it should have the potential to be a decent commercial and naval power.

Thoughts? What would you guys like to see for this region?

**cybrxkhan** · 22-08-2012 10:22

As a nationalistic Vietnamese, I'd love to see the Vietnamese excel at guerilla warfare, so that they can beat the Chinese every time the Ming send their hordes of doom onto little Vietnam so the great heroic Vietnamese can show them how guerilla warfare is done.

Sarcastic nationalism aside, on a more serious note, I do think that in the original EUIII, even after the expansions and even after the silly tech penalties, the Ming expanded way too easily into some big East Asian blob of doom. My brother, who enjoyed playing as Vietnam, had only one instance when the Ming collapsed due to a number of lucky coincidences (huge rebellions, war with everyone around, etc.). There should be a way for Imperial China to also keep its tributary nations under its yoke. Perhaps it can go to war with nations, but instead of conquering them outright, it'd just turn them into tributaries.

I also agree that Japan should continue to be divided. The Japan from before Divine Wind was just another regional power. In many of the games they would just start attacking and colonizing the crap out of SE Asia, which I find a bit suspect.

If playing as an Asian nation, keeping oneself isolated - with certain advantages and disadvantages - might be a better way to handle the power potential of Asian nations rather than the arbitrary tech penalty (although I won't say more on this since it's being debated hotly in the Eurocentrism thread right now).

**Sakura** · 22-08-2012 12:23

I was just going to make a thread like this

Korea:

(I don't expect Korea to get too much love from the devs, but just in case...)

1444's an exciting time for Korea. The Kingdom of Joseon is starting to get going, Sejong the Great is king, and hangul is about to be introduced (there should be an event related to that I think, even if its contemporary significance shouldn't be overstated).

The yangban (Neo-Confucian bureaucratic elite) have gotten themselves entrenched in power, replacing the old nobility and reforming the country's administration and economy around a centralized bureaucracy. I would like to see this act as a double-edged sword, since this system led to some impressively nasty political infighting and the appointment of unqualified military officials.

I'm going to disagree on the naval suggestion. The accomplishments of Admiral Yi were a bit of an aberration rather than a reflection of general Korean skill at naval matters. We shouldn't place too much importance on something that happens 150 years after the start of the game

China:

I'm woefully ignorant of the Ming Dynasty so can't put much here (if anyone knows a good survey history of China, please recommend it!). Generally speaking I'd like to see China restrained by domestic factors rather than artificially weakened. Some version of the Sinocentric system would be great, but I'm not really expecting it.

Japan:

No offense to the devs, but I thought that the system introduced in DW was a step backwards from the unified Japan of the earlier versions of the game. Maybe they finally got it working correctly (I haven't played EU3 in a while), but I didn't care for it from either a mechanical or historical viewpoint.

Anyway, by 1444 the Ashikaga shogunate's authority is already under serious decline, but its not quite gone yet. The provincial governors have established independent economic and military strongholds for themselves and the east of the country's a political mess. But if Yoshimasa were to die and a more capable (and older) shogun were to take over, maybe the chaos of the Sengoku period could have been avoided? I'd like to see a shogunal authority meter that would almost but not quite inexorably tick down to civil war.

I'm not quite sure how I'd like to see the Sengoku period represented. A lot would have to do with the map and other specifics that we don't know about.

A number of posters in the thread on Eurocentrism have acted like isolationism was a natural part of Japanese culture, but it really wasn't. It was actually a significant change for a country that had actively pursued foreign trade. As also mentioned in that thread, I think Japan's technological backwardness in non-military areas is also exaggerated. So I'm hoping for some kind of tech system linked to trade that won't condemn 1440s Japan for a government policy that won't be put into place until the 17th century.

I don't see an Imperial restoration as being plausible, I'm afraid. The Imperial house was impoverished and without any power by this point.

General:

Wako pirate events!

I'd like to see a lot of features of the European diplomatic model removed for Asian states. No royal marriages, diploannexations, inheritances, personal unions, etc. And restrictions on alliances.

(I'm well aware that much of the above is purely wishful thinking

)

**Leviathan07** · 22-08-2012 21:34

No matter what the details are, China will be a HUGE country commanding vast armies and immeasurable resources, and everyone else will be a midget compared to them.

The game should be able to cope with that, WITHOUT arbitrary China-nerfs (such as, -X% manpower, -Y% tax income). Playing Vietnam, or Korea, wouldn't be fundamentally different from playing China, but as you conquer an east Asian empire for yourself, you should witness yourself gradually becoming more like China, and adopting Chinese methods to cope with the demands of ruling over the vast empire.

Ideally, "administration" would be something that costs you money, depending on how you do it. Feudal administration is cheap, centralized administration is expensive. Small country is cheap, big country is expensive, country the size of China is super mega expensive. That alone could guide a Chinese player towards other things than direct conquest, even without arbitrary nerfs. Just give him something else to do with all that limitless money and manpower... dig canals. Build tombs. Build a new capital city every 100 years. Keep your complex and prosperous society running. Shower barbarians with expensive gifts. Squash huge ass revolts. Sponsor a vast class of scribes and mandarins who record your deeds for the ages.

Oh and if jungle / guerilla warfare was in, it would really be cool. Warfare across harsh and hostile terrain was important to southeast Asia all throughout the EU3 game period.

**vyshan** · 22-08-2012 22:24

One thing that could work is a revised faction system for china as well as repersenting china's tribuitary system with its neighbors

**thekinguter** · 22-08-2012 23:32

Just have Ming's name change depending on its ruling dynasty and I buy the game.

**Aetius** · 23-08-2012 01:07

Challenge I see is modelling China's interaction with the northern and western barbarians (Mongol states and Manchus). Somehow China needs to be prevented from taking over Mongol provinces, e.g. by limiting China's ability to administrating the provinces. A possibility would be to have a large malus on provinces with low development levels for Confucian and Shinto states combined with a malus for many provinces. Thus imperial overstretch leads to high instability.

**Sakura** · 23-08-2012 01:13

Why lump Japan in with China there?

(another cool thing that I don't expect to see would be to have Japan's religion be either Shinbutsu or just plain ol' Buddhism rather than Shinto).

**vyshan** · 23-08-2012 01:35

Originally Posted by Sakura

Why lump Japan in with China there?

(another cool thing that I don't expect to see would be to have Japan's religion be either Shinbutsu or just plain ol' Buddhism rather than Shinto).

I thought they had that in DW or was that another mod?

**Calanctus** · 23-08-2012 04:17

Originally Posted by Sakura

I'm going to disagree on the naval suggestion. The accomplishments of Admiral Yi were a bit of an aberration rather than a reflection of general Korean skill at naval matters. We shouldn't place too much importance on something that happens 150 years after the start of the game

And I'm going to gently disagree in turn.

Korea is a long peninsula surrounded on three sides by major bodies of water. Koreans have a long independent nautical tradition. (Even if the only thing in that tradition Westerners can name is Admiral Yi...) Some kind of small bonus isn't inappropriate at all. What would be inappropriate, I agree, is giving a large bonus solely to represent an exceptional individual who won't even show up in most games of EU4.

China:

I'm woefully ignorant of the Ming Dynasty so can't put much here (if anyone knows a good survey history of China, please recommend it!). Generally speaking I'd like to see China restrained by domestic factors rather than artificially weakened. Some version of the Sinocentric system would be great, but I'm not really expecting it.

I'd love to see some representation of the Sinocentric order as East and Southeast Asia's diplomatic paradigm. It would really go a long way towards making that area of the world more distinct and flavorful.

Originally Posted by Leviathan07

No matter what the details are, China will be a HUGE country commanding vast armies and immeasurable resources, and everyone else will be a midget compared to them.

The game should be able to cope with that, WITHOUT arbitrary China-nerfs (such as, -X% manpower, -Y% tax income). Playing Vietnam, or Korea, wouldn't be fundamentally different from playing China, but as you conquer an east Asian empire for yourself, you should witness yourself gradually becoming more like China, and adopting Chinese methods to cope with the demands of ruling over the vast empire.

Ideally, "administration" would be something that costs you money, depending on how you do it. Feudal administration is cheap, centralized administration is expensive. Small country is cheap, big country is expensive, country the size of China is super mega expensive. That alone could guide a Chinese player towards other things than direct conquest, even without arbitrary nerfs. Just give him something else to do with all that limitless money and manpower... dig canals. Build tombs. Build a new capital city every 100 years. Keep your complex and prosperous society running. Shower barbarians with expensive gifts. Squash huge ass revolts. Sponsor a vast class of scribes and mandarins who record your deeds for the ages.

Oh and if jungle / guerilla warfare was in, it would really be cool. Warfare across harsh and hostile terrain was important to southeast Asia all throughout the EU3 game period.

Some thoughts:

1. We should be careful to distinguish between China as a society/civilization and China as a state. The former was very large and very rich more or less without interruption for the entire period of EU3/4. The latter was often poor and dysfunctional.

2. The problem the Chinese state had was not expenditure--by modern standards the imperial bureaucracy was extremely small and had very low operating costs, with officials often working the equivalent of unpaid overtime or defraying state expenses out of their own pockets--but revenue. The Ming never found a way to adequately tax their booming commercial sector and relied on traditional agricultural and head taxes until the very end. In addition, there was always enormous pressure from Confucian diehards to streamline government and lower taxes. Consequently, the Ming had one of the lowest tax rates on the planet.

That's not to say I dislike your idea, which sounds fun from a gameplay standpoint. But if we want to stay true to history, a (reformable) tax penalty is actually not a bad way to represent the constraints that Ming China was operating under.

**icedt729** · 23-08-2012 06:03

I'll admit my Korea naval idea is maybe a little gamey, but I'd feel bad about having these long lists of ideas for Japan and China without showing Korea any love. Maybe make the turtle ship a decision along the lines of Highland Charge, giving admirals extra shock? And I agree that the invention of hangul should be kindof a big deal. I wouldn't want to overstate its importance since the yangban just went on using hanja, but being one of the few countries in the world promoting mass literacy deserves some recognition.

Originally Posted by Sakura

(another cool thing that I don't expect to see would be to have Japan's religion be either Shinbutsu or just plain ol' Buddhism rather than Shinto).

Couldn't this just be done by changing the name? You could even keep the torii icon, it's a good symbol for "Buddhism with Shinto characteristics." Very easy to mod.

**lazysunside** · 23-08-2012 19:29

Originally Posted by cybrxkhan

As a nationalistic Vietnamese, I'd love to see the Vietnamese excel at guerilla warfare, so that they can beat the Chinese every time the Ming send their hordes of doom onto little Vietnam so the great heroic Vietnamese can show them how guerilla warfare is done.

Sarcastic nationalism aside, on a more serious note, I do think that in the original EUIII, even after the expansions and even after the silly tech penalties, the Ming expanded way too easily into some big East Asian blob of doom. My brother, who enjoyed playing as Vietnam, had only one instance when the Ming collapsed due to a number of lucky coincidences (huge rebellions, war with everyone around, etc.). There should be a way for Imperial China to also keep its tributary nations under its yoke. Perhaps it can go to war with nations, but instead of conquering them outright, it'd just turn them into tributaries.

As another fellow Vietnamese who studied the Outline History of Vietnam (Việt Nam sử lược) I would like to add that there is no need for the Vietnamese to be excel at guerrilla warfare as every time the Chinese attacked, they annexed the country. Later we take it back by luck and rebelling with a lot of attrition on the side.

On the later half of EU3 game, China was under a civil war between Ming and Manchu, so they don't care much about the little country down south. Near the end of EU3 game, Dai Viet was one of the tributary state of China. This means we have to pay them every year for protection.

And yes, I would like to see a system for Asia only as it is historical and realistic. China protected their tributary states in return for 1-4 years tribute. The moment that a country is unable to pay tribute each year or unwilling to, China gets a cause to attack that tributary state. This however does not affect any Asian countries that has more than 20 provinces.

**Don_Quigleone** · 23-08-2012 19:40

I'd just make Korea more "naval" then neighbouring countries.

One thing I'd love to see in Asia is the (possible) influence of Christianity. Historically, Christian missionary efforts were squashed, but what if things had gone differently? What if a Christian Daimyo had become Shogun? What if the Ming had chosen not to expel the Jesuits?

Could there have been a Taiping style Chinese rebellion 100 or 200 years earlier?

Also, isolationism would obviously need to be in (AI China should be almost guaranteed to enact it, AI Japan likely but not guaranteed to). I think Isolationism should serve as a way to avoid harmful "foreign influences" like Christianity.

**Zechariah Zevi** · 23-08-2012 20:05

With regards to Korea:

I assume the presence of a hangul event is relatively probable given it's in EU3 already, along with the Hall of Worthies.

I don't really see the value of making Korea naval-oriented, the Choson navy was pretty weak historically (the whole military was, really) and as already pointed out Admiral Yi was a startling exception, not at all the norm. Yi was exceptional precisely because the Korean navy was pretty worthless apart from him. Turtle ships were probably not like their current depiction either, the archaeology and historical records all point to them being wooden ships with iron spikes, rather than ironclads.

As for the establishment of Choson, contemporary historiography suggests that the idea of a Confucian revolution during early Choson is by and large a myth. Obviously there was an ideological transformation of sorts but the social structure was pretty much continuous with Koryo aside from the blunt fact of the downfall of the late-Koryo military dictatorship -- but that process was underway a hundred years before this timeline and doesn't really deserve specific attention in EU4.

The actual historical debates here are tangential; the point I really want to make is just that I'd caution against going overboard in making mechanics (events or whatever) that buy too much into the mythology of traditional Korean history. My personal specialism is much later, Korean political history since WW2, but God knows there's enough distortion and mythologization going on in that period to make caution with earlier stuff worthwhile.

The rather complicated disputes of the yangban elite are definitely worth modelling, however -- this would probably need only one or two events specific to Korea.

I'd also suggest making the Japanese pirate raids from EU3 a little less annoying and a little more rational (anyone who played Korea successfully in EU3 will know what I mean...).

CAFE

Europa Universalis

[기타]EU4에 대한 동아시아에 대한 논의 발췌[영문]

Ideas for East Asia

댓글

카페 검색